Sam Beli

Joined

• started 35 topics
• posted 765 times   see topics posted on
• send a message

Posts by Sam Beli

• 
  13

  Does GB know 'IT' is a farce? - Yes!

  by Amazing in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  given a comment on my brci sound bites, yet another, though now deceased, gb member also stated that the organization's teachings are a farce or fraud.

  also, ray franz publications have throughly documented his views from the time he was on the gb and afterwards, as to what he thinks.

  it seems that ray also mentioned in crisis of conscience that some of the gb felt that their 1914 doctrine was in serious error while he was there.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Sam Beli

  Dear Amazing,

  One other point. You said: “I am of the opinion that the WTS/JW religion is a moderate cult, or at least exhibits 'cultish' behavior in its inter-social dynamics.”

  I am surprised that you are this generous (calling them a moderate cult). It seems to me that they force their members to drink the “cool-aide” in hospitals and “back rooms” of KHs all over the world. I know that I almost drank it. I was on my death-bed when I woke-up to the JW hypocrisy – “you can have all of the components of FFP, but you can’t have the FFP,” said the HLC. That is when I woke-up!

  Had I stayed with the hard-line JW beliefs I’d be dead today. That doctrine, my friend, is cool-aide and that puts them beyond moderate, IMHO. Birthdays, Christmas, sports, etc. may put them in the mild to moderate class, but the blood issue (physical death) and shunning (emotional and spiritual death) catapults them into the highest class possible, it seems to me.

  Regards,

  Sam Beli
• 
  13

  Does GB know 'IT' is a farce? - Yes!

  by Amazing in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  given a comment on my brci sound bites, yet another, though now deceased, gb member also stated that the organization's teachings are a farce or fraud.

  also, ray franz publications have throughly documented his views from the time he was on the gb and afterwards, as to what he thinks.

  it seems that ray also mentioned in crisis of conscience that some of the gb felt that their 1914 doctrine was in serious error while he was there.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Sam Beli

  Dear Amazing,

  You said: “…when people who are young get into a cult, and then leave many years later, perhaps 10 or 20 or more, they will for a period of time revert back to the age they were when they joined th cult. [I am headed somewhere with this.]”

  “When I left the JWs, before I read any material about cults, I was heard to say many times that I feel young again, like I am 20 years old ... and I actually when through a re-growth process.”

  Your observation seems ‘right-on’ with respect to reverting back one’s age when leaving the JW cult. I am old enough to be retired, and yet after leaving the JWs I found myself interested in my old high school chums. I went to a HS reunion for the first time – they had had eight previous reunions that I did not go to. I send birthday cards now to old HS friends and communicate occasionally with them via e-mail. I skinny dip in a nearby pool and do other ‘crazy” things associated with teenagers, though I am a grandfather. Nope, I am not having a mid-life crisis (I am way beyond mid-life) I am enjoying to the max my new found freedom.

  Thanks for the insight, Amazing.

  Warm regards,

  Sam Beli
• 
  45

  Organized religion, no religion, agnostic

  by cnn77 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i am new here trying to figure my way around...... i would appreciate it if you could say which of these fits you..... 1. still a jw.

  2. if you dont agree with the jw doctrines any longer do you belong to another religious organization now?

  3. are still religious and have no religious affiliation.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Sam Beli

  Somewhere between 2..3..4..5

  Where are you, cnn77?

  Sam Beli
• 
  32

  When Reinstated...NO APPLAUSE!

  by Disengaged in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the other evening a young person was reinstated and the jerk-water elder making the announcement went out of his way to remind "the friends" that applauding would not be proper.

  what mind control, bunk, dribble, bull................ they are so loving aren't they?

  i shoulda applauded anyway.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Sam Beli

  Dear Ozzie

  Thank you for your gracious reply. I am not much for “bearpits.” I few seem to know no other way of expressing themselves. It is a testament to your fine character that you are sufficiently versatile to operate in more than one mode.

  I am rather new to this form of dialogue. Input from intelligent folks like you will help me sharpen my thinking ability and skills of communication.

  Thanks again for your insight and for your kindness.

  Warm regards,

  Sam Beli
• 
  32

  When Reinstated...NO APPLAUSE!

  by Disengaged in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the other evening a young person was reinstated and the jerk-water elder making the announcement went out of his way to remind "the friends" that applauding would not be proper.

  what mind control, bunk, dribble, bull................ they are so loving aren't they?

  i shoulda applauded anyway.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Sam Beli

  Dear Ozzie

  Nice to hear from you as well. There is little fault to find with what you say. Since the scriptures are silent on much of the specifics of this topic we have only general guidelines to follow: the prodigal son parable for one; the grounds for divorce is another.

  The WTS has made rules in the area of marriage and divorce that go far beyond scripture. Similarly, they have made rules in the Dfing area too that are not Bible based, as we here all know.

  On the subject of this topic I have stated my reasons for not wanting to clap on most occasions when a reinstatement is announced (though the point is irrelative since I have not attended meetings for years and do not plan to ever attend again).

  I am just trying to make the point that there are valid reasons to not cheer on some of these occasions. The early comments were one-sided in favor of clapping and I just wanted to post the other side of the story. I never boo or hiss when Dfing announcements are made and I never clap when reinstatements are announced either. I think both are in bad taste.

  Hugs and well wishes later are fine for those so inclined.

  A few disclaimers:

  1. I have had a very close relative DF’ed
  2. I have not had a close friend DF’ed
  3. I have had a very close relative reinstated
  4. I have not had a close friend reinstated
  5. I never go to meetings anymore anyway (repeated for emphasis)

  Regards,

  Sam Beli
• 
  32

  When Reinstated...NO APPLAUSE!

  by Disengaged in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the other evening a young person was reinstated and the jerk-water elder making the announcement went out of his way to remind "the friends" that applauding would not be proper.

  what mind control, bunk, dribble, bull................ they are so loving aren't they?

  i shoulda applauded anyway.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Sam Beli

  I suspect that some of you who have posted to this thread have not been the victims of the actions of the one who was disfellowshipped for cause and for whom you now wish to clap. It is much easier to cheer the reinstatement if you have not been crushed by this person’s actions. Let me give you some examples of persons who might not want to clap:

  Disengaged said of the one he was concerned about:

  “And the person was just a young teenager with the hormones running wild.”

  I’m sure that his family was very glad to ‘have him back.’ But what if the parents and family of the object of this ‘indiscretion’ were also in the audience. Perhaps their teenager daughter was the object of an elder’s son’s “hormones running wild?” Maybe they feel that if this teenager had not ‘encouraged’ their teenager the whole mess wouldn’t have happened. What if their teenager is not being reinstated at the same time for whatever reason?

  In another case, perhaps one spouse was unfaithful to the other spouse and the family is forever scarred and possibly fractured beyond repair. Can you see that while some might want to cheer the reinstatement, others would not yet be ready to forgive? Can you grant that some family members or friends of the parties may know more than the elders do and have private thoughts about the reinstatement that are not very sympathetic? Perhaps some “know” as I did in the case I sighted earlier that the reinstated person was far from repentant or the damage of this person’s actions was so devastating that it would take many years for the wounds to heal, if they could ever heal?

  While some of you have referred to the prodigal son example of forgiveness, remember that that case involved a parent and a child. Almost all parents are willing to forgive almost all “sins” of their child. However, Jesus said that in the case of marriage one who “sinned’ against the marriage did not need to be forgiven. That is, the innocent mate was not required to forgive the adultery of the other mate. The offended mate could proceed with divorcee, thereby forever breaking the marriage contract and leaving the offending mate in a state of non-forgiveness.

  So, as SJ and Philo have suggested earlier, in the eyes of each of us there may be legitimate differences of opinion about the merits of an individual reinstatement.

  Sorry, but reinstatement is not always a time to cheer. Too many elders (read JC) have “blown it” too many times, IMHO.

  Whether Dfing should happen at all is another issue for other threads. We all come from a different prospective and will see things differently and while cheering may be appropriate on some occasions, I have seen too many cases where the reinstatement (by JW standards) was so premature as to be sickening.

  Regards,

  Sam Beli
• 
  32

  When Reinstated...NO APPLAUSE!

  by Disengaged in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the other evening a young person was reinstated and the jerk-water elder making the announcement went out of his way to remind "the friends" that applauding would not be proper.

  what mind control, bunk, dribble, bull................ they are so loving aren't they?

  i shoulda applauded anyway.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Sam Beli

  Dear SJ,

  Now cut that out. I about split my sides reading your response!

  Warm regards,

  Sam Beli
• 
  32

  When Reinstated...NO APPLAUSE!

  by Disengaged in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the other evening a young person was reinstated and the jerk-water elder making the announcement went out of his way to remind "the friends" that applauding would not be proper.

  what mind control, bunk, dribble, bull................ they are so loving aren't they?

  i shoulda applauded anyway.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Sam Beli

  Dear SJ

  You said: “Sorry, Sam, but you are in error”

  We’ll see.

  You went on to say: “That WTBTS was 'dead' wrong... from day one. Why?
  First, they had no 'authority' to disfellowship to begin with.”

  I totally agree. However Dfing was not the topic of this thread. Clapping upon reinstatement was the topic.

  Next you said: “What SHOULD have happened is stated at Matthew 18:15-18. It should have started with the wife, and if SHE felt him repentant, then SHE was to forgive him... and that would have been the end of it.”

  I agree with part of what you said above, the Matt 18 part. In the rest of your statement you made the same mistake that Watchtower editors frequently make – that of assuming that the adulterous spouse was the “HE” of this marriage. I was careful to use non gender specific words to describe this particular situation.

  With respect to the remainder of your post I agree with the spirit of what you say regarding the need for each of us to decide without input from a judicial committee how we will view and treat others.

  Dear Philo,

  You said: “Sorry Sam, but I think you are wrong to say Brooklyn have got THIS one right, dead wrong.”

  Well, I’m still alive

  “First, there are scriptural reasons (see above) to rejoice over a repentee, even if he/she came back for selfish reasons (see prodigal).”

  If you choose to clap that is fine with me.
  
  "Second, I could easily quote you real, as well as plausible but fictitious, cases to show how awful the welcoming silence at the hall is. So your example doesn't show that Brooklyn got it right."

  OK, maybe you have a point (at times). Doesn’t this really illustrate the need to let individuals make their own choices about these matters?

  “How often is the human desire to delight in the return of a lost friend suppressed, in the congregation? Most times in my experience. And for why? because of a blanket, unnecessary policy which presumes to dictate to human emotions.”

  I retired from the JW world before the present policy went into effect, so I have not witnessed the situations of which you speak

  “I have no problem with applause when people are happy, or silence if people are doubtful about a returnee. I have no problem with a mixture of the two. If a welcome party is arranged for a returnee and nobody comes, that's fine. But when a totalitarian gerantocrazy has imposed itself on the hearts of the people who know best: that's the brothers and sisters who knew, know, and probably still care about the person they have been shunning, this is entirely WRONG!”

  Agreed, the above position makes sense! I was in a congregation what had more than its share of unsavory characters (many of them elders) and my view of things hardened over time. I’m sure that it could be very different in other areas.

  “What? Am I getting pompous again. I CAN do that.
  Philo”

  Maybe, but it seems that you have a reasonable position and I can admit that my first statement was too narrow and didn’t take into consideration different circumstances in other locations. In other words, I know that many have been DF’d that never disserved it, if indeed any should have been.

  I appreciate your well reasoned response.

  Dear SixofNine

  You said: “I have to agree with those who see it differently Sam. What you described sounds like a rare case, mishandled by the elders (not that there is anything rare about that), and exacerbated by a congregation full of unloving people. Well, I suppose they had love for the popular bro, but not nearly enough for his spouse, or, for that matter, their own doctrine.”

  Note that you too assumed the sex of the spouse (and in error I might add). Otherwise, I agree with your statement.

  Regards,

  Sam Beli
• 
  32

  When Reinstated...NO APPLAUSE!

  by Disengaged in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the other evening a young person was reinstated and the jerk-water elder making the announcement went out of his way to remind "the friends" that applauding would not be proper.

  what mind control, bunk, dribble, bull................ they are so loving aren't they?

  i shoulda applauded anyway.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Sam Beli

  Let me make an observation as one who was involved with this very issue some years ago. Believe me, I am no Watchtower apologist! However, this is one practice that I can defend, to a point. Consider the following actual case:

  Spouse has an on-going affair with another and leaves mate. The elders are fond of the adulterous spouse, because this one has been popular for years in the congregation. The elders assume that this popular witness must have been driven to the adultery by some action of the other mate, though no such evidence is presented and no such claim is made by the adulterous mate. The guilty mate is so popular that it is weeks and weeks after a letter of confession is written by the guilty party before any disfellowshipping action is taken. Even then, the elders are wringing their hands and trying desperately to find a reason to NOT disfellowship this witness.

  In only THREE (3) months the guilty mate is reinstated! This is record time in the JW world. Why so soon? Again, because of the immense popularity of this individual. When this reinstatement announcement was read there was clapping and an elder immediately began to plan for a party to welcome this one back.

  The offended mate was not pleased by the celebratory atmosphere surrounding this return. Why? Because the guilty mate had a lot to prove yet. It was obvious to any thinking observer that 3 months was not enough time for the guilty mate to have become remorseful, turned around, proved repentance and proved that the unfaithfulness was over.

  The clapping went on, the party went on, and a few weeks later that mate showed serious signs of slipping back into the previous immoral behavior. A little later on that mate was again disfellowshipped!

  Some celebrations are premature. In the above real life case the innocent mate knew more than the elders did and wished that the congregation would have had the wisdom to wait for a period of time to see how this mate faired under the stress of time.

  Even Brooklyn gets one right once in a while.

  Regards,

  Sam Beli
• 
  4

  Info please re Dateline airing

  by lauralisa in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i understand that there will be a "dateline" show about the wtbs or whatever it's referred to now airing in the near future.. i'm clueless about tv but would like to see it; could anyone please give me details about what it will be about and when it will air?

  thank you ..... ll.

  it's just water.... it's just water from a stranger's tear.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Sam Beli

  sf, September is probably good. The audience will probably be larger than if it was aired during the summer. Reaching more people is better, right?

  Sam Beli